00:00:00 - 00:00:45
Lance Mortlock
Welcome to the next episode of the Energy Drivers podcast. I'm Lance Mortlock and I'm your host of today's discussion with Hugues Jacquemin, the Chief Executive Officer at Northern Graphite, and a long-time mining industry professional. Throughout our series, we invite Canadian energy and mining leaders to discuss key issues, provide insights and ask challenging questions. In previous episodes, we've highlighted the importance of critical minerals in the energy transition, so we decided to further explore this subject by discussing graphite mining opportunities in Canada. Hugues, thank you for joining the podcast.
00:00:45 - 00:00:47
Hugues Jacquemin
Lance, thank you for having me.
00:00:47 - 00:01:10
Lance Mortlock
I've been really looking forward to this and chatting further with you about graphite and its importance in the energy transition. So maybe we can begin this episode with a small introduction. Tell us a bit more about your story and describe Northern Graphite to our listeners.
00:01:10 - 00:04:57
Hugues Jacquemin
Yes. Thank you. I'm a Belgian guy and I've spent the last 10 years in the graphite carbon powder industry. I started actually in 2014. I was working for Imerys at the time, and I was running the graphite and carbon business, and we were just getting ready to expand into the lithium-ion battery industry, which was just developing at the time. And so, I spent a good 4 or 5 years doing that. And then I for a period of time, I worked for, a single nanotube carbon company, and I helped them develop their products in, in the US. And then, during COVID, everything kind of got frozen up. And I started talking to Greg Bowes, who was the CEO of Northern Graphite at the time, and he needed some help with regards to his product in Bissett Creek and how to finance that. And we started working together, and we came up with an idea which was to buy two production mines, two mines in production that Imerys had. One was in Lac-des-Îles in Québec and the other one in Okanjande in Namibia. And so, we approached Imerys and, we made a deal, and we basically bought those two mines in 2022. And then Greg at the time retired and became our chairman on the board, and I joined as the CEO. And so, I've been running Northern Graphite now for two years, developing the company and getting it ready to be a major player in the lithium-ion battery industry moving forward, leveraging the free assets that we have. Northern Graphite is a listed company in Toronto. It was founded in 2002, so more than 20 years ago, and it was founded based on the Ontario deposit called Bissett Creek. And then, of course, following the acquisition we now have two additional mines, one in Lac-des-Îles and the one in Namibia. What's quite interesting is that, you know, through the acquisition where we are now, you know, the only producer of graphite in North America and one of 3 or 4 producers outside of China, major producers outside of China. The mine in Lac-des-Îles has been producing for more than 30 years and is really servicing all the industrial traditional markets. The mine in Namibia was in operation in 2017, and then it was put in care and maintenance in 2018. And so, when we bought it in ’22, we were busy basically relocating and restarting the asset. And then on top of continuing to develop the Bissett Creek project, our goal is really to go after the lithium-ion battery industry because although the traditional graphite markets keep on growing at twice the rate of GDP, the real opportunity for growth is in the batteries. And so, we started developing a plan to build a big anode facility up in northern Québec, in Baie-Comeau. And so, we were basically as a company addressing that market. And then more recently in February, we bought the asset of division of Heraeus that was focused on carbon materials in the battery industry in Frankfurt. And so, it’s become our development arm. And so, we have now an R&D center in Frankfurt that's developing materials for both the lithium-ion battery industry and the solid-state industry.
00:04:57 - 00:05:17
Lance Mortlock
And maybe building on that last comment a little bit, some of our audience might not be familiar with graphite. Why is graphite so important? What are the major applications of this critical mineral, including battery technology, which we've been talking about quite a bit on this show?
00:05:19 - 00:07:06
Hugues Jacquemin
Graphite is an excellent conductor of heat and electricity and, you know, it's one of two natural forms of crystalline carbon out there in nature, the other one being diamond. And you know what's really interesting about the graphite is its unique crystalline structure, which basically gives it the properties that we talked about in terms of heat and conductivity. It's a very good replacement for copper because it's almost as conductive as copper, but it's five times lighter. So, on a weight basis, you know, the conductivity from, heat point of view is very high. So, there are a lot of applications, like for example, refractories or electronics or even plastics that require this level of conductivity but cannot afford the weight of the copper that would then replace, you know, copper with graphite. But then since the advent of the battery industry, the graphite itself acts as a storage media in the anode, in the negative pole of a battery to store the lithium ion. So, the six atoms of carbon that are made up of a of graphite crystal will basically hold one lithium ion. And so, in terms of building a lithium-ion battery, it's the best material in order to play the role of the anode, storing the lithium ions that are in the battery. And today, there are many alternatives that are being looked at, but it's predominantly the most used, you know, to store ions in a lithium-ion battery.
00:07:06 - 00:07:17
Lance Mortlock
And there are two primary forms of graphite from the investigation that I did, there's natural flake and synthetic. What are the main differences between these two?
00:07:17 - 00:10:56
Hugues Jacquemin
Yeah, I mean you know the everything can be synthesized, but what you get is not really like, the, the real thing. And so, for example, if you look at diamonds, you can find diamonds in nature and then you can also synthesize diamonds. The same applies for graphite. You can mine the graphite and you can actually synthesize it from coke, which is either from a petroleum or coal-based material. And what usually happens is that when you synthesize the material, it's very, it's easy to get the carbon properties, but it's very difficult to get the crystallinity. And that's because the force and the temperature that was applied when the vein of graphite was formed many millions of years ago is so much higher than you can replicate in a normal, let's say, factory environment, but it's very difficult to reach the same level of crystallinity. You can play some tricks to increase the crystallinity by adding additives to your petroleum coke or your coal-based material. But at the end of the day, it's very difficult to get the crystallinity. Now natural graphite has a much lower CO2 footprint than synthetic graphite. And that's because the energy that was used at the time it was created, you know, was free basically and natural. Whereas in synthetic graphite the only way to get to gravitation temperatures, which is almost the temperature of the sun, you know, you require a huge amount of energy. And usually that's provided through conducting a huge amount of electricity through the graphite. That's how you get to that kind of temperature. So, the level of CO2 that's required for that is very high on top of using a material that usually comes out of the coal or petroleum refineries. So you're already in the hole when you start. The other difference is that the synthetic graphite is more expensive than the natural graphite generally. And then if you look at the material from a capacity point of view, the crystallinity is what drives the capacity. So, for example natural graphite, theoretical capacity is about 372 million per gram, whereas a synthetic graphite would probably be more around 330 or 340. So, the natural graphite has a higher capacity, but because it has a higher capacity, it tends to swell more. Because the lithium ions are quite large compared to the carbon ions, so when you intercalate the graphite, you will get this 10% swelling on natural graphite. And you probably, again 4% or 5% swelling, on the synthetic graphite and therefore you get, let's say, a higher performance of the synthetic graphite over many cycles than you do with natural graphite. So just to give you a practical example if you're charging a battery in the vehicle, you probably will get less cycles out of natural graphite, less charge and discharge cycle with natural graphite than you do with synthetic graphite. And that's why today the industry actually mixes the two to optimize in the lithium-ion battery industry and the anode, they would mix both natural and synthetic graphite so then they can get the best of both worlds. The capacity on one hand and the cycleability on the other.
00:11:02 - 00:11:33
Lance Mortlock
One of the things, Hugues, we've been talking a lot about on this show is just the importance of, when it comes to energy transition in Canada, producing Canadian-made critical metals and minerals to feed the value chain and the supply chain system, a made-in Canada-solution. When you think about that, what are the estimates on Canada's graphite deposits? And, in fact, can we produce enough graphite to satisfy our domestic needs and potential international needs more broadly?
00:11:33 - 00:12:51
Hugues Jacquemin
It's kind of interesting. I was at PDAC in March, and I had the opportunity to go to the Québec booth, and they had just produced a map of all the critical minerals, deposits and mines that were in Québec. And it's quite interesting when you look at all the graphite deposits that have been discovered in Canada, and you look at our mine, which is actually located in that same area, you have this huge corridor that goes from the Ontario border, where our Bissett Creek mine is, and goes all the way up to northern Québec. And within that corridor you have, quite a large number of deposits that have been identified, some of them really large. And Canada is definitely, one of the places in the world where there is the most graphite and most importantly, the highest-quality crystalline graphite that you can find in the world. Our mine in Lac-des-Îles is known for the quality of its flakes. And that's why we get such a good price for our products over the last 30 years for what we produce there.
00:13:02 - 00:13:51
Lance Mortlock
Maybe building on that question a little bit, Hugues, you think about China. And they might be a global leader in graphite production. But to me, and again, we've talked about this on previous episodes as it relates to the energy transition, it might create some supply security concerns because they essentially have monopoly power. And the world might be over-relying on just one country to deliver this critical resource. You think about solar panels, for example, like China has dominated solar panel production for the last couple of decades. What do you think? Is this a major issue that we should be worried about, and what role can Canada play? And it's more of a geopolitical question.
00:13:51 - 00:15:47
Hugues Jacquemin
The dominance that China has across the whole supply chain of batteries is just mind boggling when you look at it. I mean, they’ve invested so much into this industry, and they have such a dominant position. But their position in graphite is even more dominant than any of the others, as far as I'm concerned. And that's because there hasn't been enough value in graphite for people to invest and develop new mines. and therefore, there are a lot of deposits. I mean, the deposit in Canada is, we're talking tens of millions of tons of graphite that have been found and all of good quality and high grade. But on the other hand, there has never been enough capital deployed for graphite because it was always too cheap to be able to provide an adequate return in the traditional markets. And those markets were not very large. I mean, today the graphite market in North America is about 100,000 tons a year. We supply maybe 15% of that out of the mine in Lac-des-Îles. The rest comes from mostly China, a little bit from Madagascar, and a little bit from Mozambique, and a little bit from Brazil. But that's it. So, you know, from a geopolitical point of view we brought it on ourselves by not investing because we did not really see and believe that the battery industry would grow so quickly. And China has made a very concerted effort to limit the development of new mines outside of China. I remember when I started the mine in Namibia, I was working for Imerys at the time in 2016, and we built the mine, and then we operated it in ’17, and then in ’18 we had to put it back in care and maintenance, because the pricing in Europe had completely collapsed because China had overcapacity and they were flooding the market with cheap products, and we couldn't compete from Namibia into Europe. So, we stopped the mining.
00:15:47 - 00:15:52
Lance Mortlock
The power that they have to flood the market and then crush prices and put people out of business.
00:15:52 - 00:16:37
Hugues Jacquemin
It is, and you know, it's happening today, too. I mean, if you look at the situation, we're in we've been at it for about two years since we bought these mines. And one of our major objectives is to get some of these battery manufacturers and OEMs to give us offtake so that we can finance the expansion of our mine and the build of our anode facility in Baie-Comeau. And unfortunately, the pricing of anode material coming out of China is below cost. And there's no way we can attract capital or justify investment and loans from banks based on the current pricing of the material.
00:16:37 - 00:17:08
Lance Mortlock
So maybe, Hugues, where my mind goes is, if you think about the Biden administration and what they announced recently around the new requirement for battery anode material and the requirement being to source graphite from North American producers by 2027. That's going to help us here in North America, isn't it? It's going to help companies like yours become critical suppliers in the process of building batteries.
00:17:08 - 00:20:38
Hugues Jacquemin
We are one of five members of an association of graphite producers in North America where both natural graphite and synthetic graphite companies are working together to lobby with the US Government around IRA (Inflation Reduction Act) so that we can basically get the offtakes and investments we need to develop the capacity. And if you look at what's happened with the Biden administration, they came out in December and basically started to provide guidance on the rule of foreign entity of concern for OEMs and battery manufacturers to qualify for the rebate. And they basically said if there is a critical mineral in the battery that comes from a foreign entity of concern, you cannot qualify for the IRA. And so that was really good news for us graphite players because it really gave us an opportunity to advance our projects. But then a lot of the batteries and the OEMs started lobbying with the Biden administration and said, hey, there is no graphite supply chain in North America if you do that, and none of our vehicles will qualify for the IRA. So, you've got to give us some room. And so, we basically started working on providing the Biden administration with a number of different reports and data. And the compromise that was decided by the Biden administration announced a couple of weeks ago was that they would basically give the OEMs and the battery manufacturers a two-year window until January 1, 2027, to establish a supply chain in North America. And therefore, during that two-year period, the batteries and the vehicles would qualify but, they would have to provide meaningful negotiations, evidence of meaningful negotiations with other graphite producers in North America so that during that two-year period we could build the supply chain together. And I think at the end, it's a good compromise. We would have wished for it to be more impactful. But it's okay. That should help us a lot. And then yesterday the Biden administration again came out and basically reinstated a tariff that had been imposed back in 2020 around imports of graphite from China. And so as of 2026 that tariff of 25% will now be applied on natural graphite coming into the US from China. And that will also help us. We would have hoped that it would have been immediate, 2024, like a lot of the other minerals. But again, I think they want to give the OEMs some time because we have to create that supply chain, which today really doesn't exist. I mean, to my knowledge from a natural graphite perspective, the only producer in North America is Syrah with their plant in Louisiana that they just started a few months ago with 11,000 tons of capacity.
00:20:38 - 00:21:20
Lance Mortlock
So, when you think about North American and maybe Canadian graphite, what are the advantages, what advantages do we have in Canada? Are our production processes more cost effective than China? Can they be? What do we have going for us? Because tariffs are one thing and I get that you need a certain amount of protectionism of North American companies and economies. But at the same time, we need to be competitive. And if we're not competitive, like do we have a long-term future?
00:21:20 - 00:25:16
Hugues Jacquemin
Yeah. I think when you compete one of the things you think about is, is the competition fair or not? You know, if the Chinese Government is subsidizing the industry and they are coming out with pricing at $600 or $700 a kilo, a tonne, sorry. Because they're getting huge subsidies from the Chinese Government. That's not necessarily very fair. So, I think the tariffs kind of put it back on a level playing field by eliminating the subsidies that may be in involved in the supply chain of natural graphite from China. I think from a Canada perspective, we definitely have the resource to be a big player and to be very competitive. But it will require a lot of investment and we have to scale. Our mine in Lac-des-Îles, you can produce a maximum of 25,000 tonnes. It was sized for the industrial market 30 years ago. And when we look at the demand for graphite in North America, we're talking about 1.3 million tonnes of anode material required to fill all of the capacity that is planned today, which is about 1.3. And in order to produce 1.3 million tonnes of graphite cost effectively, you need to build big plants and to get the scale to be competitive. And so I believe that the deposits we have are competitive deposits, but we need to invest into capacity that can be competitive. And so that's what we have in mind. You know, we want to build 100,000 tonne plants, 150,000 tonne plants. Even in Lac-des-Îles, we just explored the property we were on last year, we found a lot more graphite. We are continuing to explore. The objective is to transform our 25,000-tonne facility into a 100,000-tonne facility so we can get to scale because today our fixed cost is not spread over a large amount enough of a volume to be able to get that cost down. But if we do, I think we can be very competitive. And on top of that Canada offers so much more than China in terms of traceability, in terms of CO2 footprint, in terms of ESG and that really matters to a lot of our customers today. They care about where the graphite comes from, what's your CO2 footprint what's your governance? What's your social responsibility? What are you doing with the workforce? Are you a high percentage of female? Are you dealing properly to recognize the rights of the First Nations on the territories you operate in? All those things are very important. In China, it's a free for all, very low traceability. Actually, a lot of the graphite that's produced in China comes over the border from North Korea, because a lot of the deposits are over the border on the other side. So you know when you're buying graphite from China, you don't really know what you're buying. And then in terms of ESG, we all know that China doesn't have the same standards that Canada has. So, I think we can be a real leader in the graphite space, but it will require a lot of investment. And I think the government really needs to step in and help us. And I think there's been a lot of talk about critical minerals and support from the government on how they can support us. And we talk about tax credits. We talk about a lot of different financing opportunities that they’re putting together. But so far, it's been very difficult to understand them and to access them in a meaningful way so that we can develop the scalable capacity and capital.
00:25:16 - 00:26:20
Lance Mortlock
One of the things that strikes me, Hugues, and I was talking to some ex-politicians about this earlier in the week, we are missing in this country a national strategy around energy and mining and resources collectively. Such a complex system with value chains that are integrated in different ways that we need to think about it holistically. And I think for quite some time now, we've lacked that holistic strategy overall, and it's something that's desperately needed. One question I was wondering about. As the sole producer of graphite in Canada, that puts your company in a pretty unique position. Would you like to see more producers, or would you prefer for your organization to be the sole producer in this country? What's your view on that?
00:26:20 - 00:28:08
Hugues Jacquemin
I think we need many producers. The gap between what's available out there and what's required in the future is so large. Last year, we produced and sold about 10,000 tonnes. This year we'll do about 16,000. We can go up to 25,000 with the existing facility. And the demand’s, it's like 1.3 million tonnes by 2030. So of course we have to create many companies that produce graphite in Canada to supply the North American market. And we want to be a facilitator. Very often I would even invite some of our colleagues from the graphite industry to come and visit the mine and see what we're doing. Because it's quite unique as a process, it's not like something that you can come up with. And I think we really have to be at the forefront of the industry and driving the understanding and the knowledge around what graphite is, how you mine it, how you produce it, how you put it into a battery and then transfer that over to all the stakeholders, investors so that everybody who has a graphite deposit can put it into production as quickly as possible. I think that should be the strategy. And I think the government should think that way. And that corridor I was talking about in Québec really stuck with me at the PBSC. We've got this one corridor, which is long, maybe 700 kilometres, but it has all these graphite deposits. What a wonderful opportunity for Canada and Québec to grow and develop this very dominant position in graphite. I don't know of any other area in the world that's like that.
00:28:08 - 00:29:37
Lance Mortlock
It's interesting, isn't it? We are blessed with natural resources in this country. But I do feel like sometimes we get in our own way. I was at a conference, speaking at a conference last week in Vancouver, Natural Gas Conference, and it was focused on LNG, and we are close to completing our first LNG facility on the west coast of Canada, LNG Canada. It's taken us 14 years to build that facility. In the same period of time, the US has built seven facilities and approved 21. In fact, in half the time, actually, in six years. So, the point that I made at this conference last week was why is it that everything in this country is so slow? I get we need to be sustainable and environmentally conscious around how we do things. But the approval processes can be incredibly slow. And when I think about the importance of energy transition, getting to net zero, we need a regulatory system that supports that in the right way. Which is maybe my next question for you, Hugues. When you think about regulators, the role that they play, approval processes can take over 20 years. Is the current regulation working and fit for purpose in your mind?
00:29:37 - 00:32:25
Hugues Jacquemin
Yeah, it's a good question. I don't have a lot of experience personally because I was blessed with operating mines. So, when you're operating the mine itself to expand it and to do additional resources, exploration and so on, it's relatively easy to do. So, I think from our perspective I think the regulation is okay, especially in Québec. I don't know about so much about the other regions. But when I look at the deposit we have in Ontario and how much work is being put into that deposit over the last 10 years to get it to where it is today, and we're almost there. We've got most of a major permit. We've got the feasibility study done. We're well advanced with our discussions with the First Nations. And we still have a couple years to go, even though we're still there. For sure it can be streamlined. I recently was in France and I was amazed, I've spent quite a bit of time working in France over the years, and I was amazed at how much they have streamlined the whole permitting process by getting the administration involved on the team that is trying to obtain the permit, so that rather than submitting documents through the wall and waiting for an answer on the other side, the folks are working together in the room to understand the complexities of what is trying to be achieved, and then making a decision right there and then on what it should look like so that you can accelerate the whole permitting process. And so now in France you can go from the moment you submit your document until you get your permit within nine months, which was never seen before. And I think that's what we’ve got to be thinking about, is how do we streamline the processes that we have? I don't think it's about getting rid of the safety barriers. It's more about how do we work better with the administration to address whatever issue comes up right up front in the process rather than having to wait and play the back and forth with the administration. And I think then when you do that, it's just like any industrial process when you do lean manufacturing only one way, if you if you address the process then you can really, significantly improve how long it takes.
00:32:25 - 00:32:29
Lance Mortlock
That makes sense. That makes sense. Maybe.
00:32:29 - 00:32:59
Hugues Jacquemin
In the US it's a little bit different, right? Because from a permitting point of view, it's very much state driven. That's what I understand. And so, it really depends which state you go to. You know, some states are better than others to get the permitting done. But to some extent that's true in Canada as well, right? Because the regions too impact the permitting process. The federal government does play a role too, right.
00:32:59 - 00:33:20
Lance Mortlock
What about labour? Which is particularly prevalent in the energy and mining space. Does Canada have enough talent to ramp up production of graphite? Do we need more miners? Do we need more engineers? Do we have enough people to close the talent gap in the future?
00:33:20 - 00:35:01
Hugues Jacquemin
Definitely not. I think one of our biggest challenges in the last couple of years has been staffing at all levels. Whether we're talking about the flotation plant, we’re also talking about metallurgies, talking about mining engineers and recruiting has been very difficult. We also have the language in Québec, which makes it a little bit more complex because you need French speakers. Otherwise, it's very difficult to operate, especially if you're dealing a lot with the folks in the plant and the folks in the administration, having the French language is very important and so. But there are, I think the statistics says that the world in Canada, we have like half a million immigrants every year coming in. And so I think it's important that we attract immigrants in the mining sector because there's a lot of mining expertise around the world, and so we've recruited a lot of people from Africa, from France, we've recruited folks from all over. And then every time it's quite complicated. You have to do all the paperwork and so on and so on. And again, that can be streamlined, but we have to attract the folks that have the knowledge and especially with graphite, a lot of that knowledge is in China. So how do you deal with that, right? Because it's kind of difficult to attract a lot of labour from China into Canada because of the geopolitical situation.
00:35:01 - 00:35:08
Lance Mortlock
As we kind of draw this to a close, are you optimistic about the future?
00:35:08 - 00:35:09
Hugues Jacquemin
Well, I am very.
00:35:09 - 00:35:17
Lance Mortlock
With graphite and battery technology and where it's headed? Are you excited about the future?
00:35:17 - 00:37:42
Hugues Jacquemin
I'm very excited. You know, I'm 57. I spent the last 10 years of my life chasing the battery industry with graphite and carbon powders, and I just think it's a fantastic opportunity. I mean, where else would you want to be kind of thing? I think what's frustrating in the last couple of years for me has been how difficult the public markets are and how difficult it is to get investors to buy into the story and buy into the projects that we're doing. How difficult it is to deal with all these geopolitical issues. How difficult it is to compete with China so aggressively. But I remain very optimistic. You know, I always say to people logic will prevail, and I think we will make the right decisions eventually. And the question is how many times do we have to fall on our faces before we learn that we need to act differently and change things? You know, look at the solar industry, look at the electronics industry. We've let that go. And now we are really paying the price for it. And so, are we going to let that happen again? I mean, you talked about energy and LNG all of those industries, how do we make sure that we think ahead, like the Chinese have done? You know, the Chinese with regards to the electric vehicle industry, they really saw an opportunity 15 years ago. And they wanted to get into the car industry, and they didn't want to do it with internal combustion engines because they were behind the train and to overtake the train, that was very difficult to do. And so they basically cut the corner and saw the opportunity with electric cars. And now they're way ahead of us, right? And so we've got some catchup to do. Rather than talking about it, we should be doing something about it. And I think that's what excites me every morning when I wake up. I'm actually doing something about it rather than talking about it.
00:37:42 - 00:38:22
Lance Mortlock
Yeah, it's very inspiring, for sure. And you're right. I mean, you think about what China has done with Build Your Dreams. The electric vehicles that they're building, it's just incredible the scale and the speed by which the country is getting things done., But I think your story is very inspiring. We need Canadian producers developing graphite. I think it's a critical part of our ecosystem. And listen, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your story. So, thank you, Hugues.
00:38:22 - 00:38:26
Hugues Jacquemin
You're very welcome. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.
00:38:26 - 00:40:18
Lance Mortlock
It's a pleasure for me as well talking to folks like you and learning more about the Northern Graphite story and the scale of graphite production opportunities in Canada, in particular in Québec. For our listeners, if you have your own questions or queries, you can reach out to EY via the attached contact details. I think finishing another great conversation and episode, I would like to share maybe a few final thoughts. One, graphite applications are quite diverse. Hugues highlighted why this critical mineral is important to the energy transition and beyond. And several technologies such as batteries, electrodes and refractories cannot be without graphite. Secondly, Canadian graphite production is growing. And I think it's something that, as Hugues pointed out, we need to watch. We might not be a global leader yet, but Canada has a great potential to scale our graphite mining opportunities in the future. And I think that's very exciting. Even though China has the monopoly power today, we can and should provide more supply security to the world in the future. And maybe, finally, Canada still needs to overcome several barriers. It's clear that Canadian graphite producers need more capital, and Hugues talked about that, skilled labour and regulatory enablement. But if we are able to tackle those challenges, Canada can get closer to reaching its graphite production potential. So once again, thank you to our listeners for joining our podcast, and we'll see you on the next episode.
